2. Meyer was a great but not elite coach until he got Tebow. What happens if he struggles to be a top program after he loses one of the top 5 players of all time?
3. In addition to Tebow, he has to replace half his offense and almost all of his D. UF has been dominant because of Tebow and his D. The key pieces of everything are gone next year.
4. The schedule only gets harder in the future. UGA, LSU, FSU, and UT were all in transition years this year and will be stronger next year. At ND, his toughest tests are USC and Michigan (ha). At UF, he's got UT, Bama, UGA, LSU, South Carolina, FSU and more on his schedule for next year.
4. Getting to the BCS is easier for ND than it is in the SEC. If he built ND up to a 9 to 10 win program, he'd be in the BCS every year. It's easier to play for a national title at ND than it is UF.
5. He's had a special run at Florida, but you don't sustain runs in the SEC unless you are something special. Eventually, you get knocked back into mediocrity (ex. look at Auburn, LSU and Georgia in the last 3 years). There is no proof that he has the national title pedigree without Tebow. If he struggles to be a contender without Tebow, he loses the ability to get this size of a contract that ND would give. If he stays at UF, he loses at least 3 games next year and gets frustrated. If he goes to ND, he could win all but 3 games and be applauded.
He has said that he'll stay as long as Florida will give him, but I think he'd go to ND at the right price. If he considers everything, I think he goes to ND if he's smart. If he's truly one of the best coaches of all time, then there is no easier place to recruit nationally and win 10 games than Notre Dame. If Weis was half a coach, he would have averaged at least 9 games while at ND.
Meyer won a national title with Chris Leak. If he's not an "elite" coach, who the hell is?!
I don't agree that the Gators, if Meyer stays, have to necessarily sink to "mediocrity." There will be down years, of course, but Spurrier proved that with a recruiting base like we have here in FL, there is no reason for the Gators to ever be down very long. Auburn, UGA and LSU ... and in fact every other program in this conference ... will have those ups and downs because they can't recruit in FL at the level UF does, and the state of FL is the most fertile recruiting ground in the country (except for Texas maybe ... but the schools in the SEC, save LSU, aren't really competing for Texas players).
The only reason someone like Urban should leave Florida is if he feels there is nothing more to accomplish with the Gators. Is it a good reason? Not really and Meyer will more than likely stay at Florida. But he is a Notre Dame fan and I'm sure he's discussed it with his family and I'm sure he will make the right decision.
Meyer was a great but not elite coach until he got Tebow. What happens if he struggles to be a top program after he loses one of the top 5 players of all time? And you think Notre Dame would be more forgiving if he didn't win immediately because? As a gator fan, I'm fully expecting to lose at least 3 games next year, and would gladly do so in exchange for the incredible recent run of success. You simply don't lose the greatest player in the history of your program, and over half of your starting defense and expect not to miss a beat.
Nobody here is calling for Billy D's head, and won't be even if we fail to make the tournament again. He has a job for life here if he wants it. In addition to Tebow, he has to replace half his offense and almost all of his D. UF has been dominant because of Tebow and his D. The key pieces of everything are gone next year. Not denying that. But he'd have to rebuild at Notre Dame as well.
The schedule only gets harder in the future. UGA, LSU, FSU, and UT were all in transition years this year and will be stronger next year. At ND, his toughest tests are USC and Michigan (ha). At UF, he's got UT, Bama, UGA, LSU, South Carolina, FSU and more on his schedule for next year. I don't think Meyer's next career move will be an attempt to duck competition. If anything, I could see him trying the NFL.
He's had a special run at Florida, but you don't sustain runs in the SEC unless you are something special He's won 2 National Titles in 3 years in the SEC. He is something special. There is no proof that he has the national title pedigree without Tebow. If he struggles to be a contender without TebowExcept when he went undefeated at Utah or won a national championship with Chris Leak. He makes guys like Smith and Leak into stars, and turns guys like Tebow into legends. That's what great coaches do.
If he stays at UF, he loses at least 3 games next year and gets frustrated. If he goes to ND, he could win all but 3 games and be applauded. Again, I fully expect us to lose 3 next year, and will be highly pleased with anything better. Also, I really don't think people with egos the size of Urban Meyer's really say to themselves "Which of these schools will react the best if I lose three games". He only cares about winning national titles, and he's proven he can at UF.
I think he goes to ND if he's smart. If he's truly one of the best coaches of all time, then there is no easier place to recruit nationally and win 10 games than Notre Dame. You claim that success is easier at Notre Dame, but then somehow going to coach against easier competiton would prove that he's truly one of the best of all time? Huh?
I always get a kick out of people that say ND can't recruit as easy as other schools. Yes, schools in Florida, Texas, and California will always have good recruiting classes because they can keep talent in state. But ND has always, ALWAYS been a national recruiting scene, and only recently have they looked poor in recruiting because they don't have good recruiters at the school. Holtz was always able to bring in talent. Even Davies brought in blue chips. But since Willingham, they have not been able to bring in consistent top 10 classes like they used to. People look at USC and Florida's classes year after year and say how amazing it is...that used to be Notre Dame! They obviously CAN recruit the great atheletes, it is just a matter of getting the recruiters to convince the kids. Not to mention:
1.) As you said, it is easier for ND to get into the BCS because they only need 9 wins and a top 12 ranking. Very easy to obtain since they can set their own schedule.
2.) Wanna play for a national title every year? Just beat USC and you are in. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE EPIC RIVALRY THAT WILL RETURN IF CARROLL AND MEYER WENT AT IT EVERY YEAR? Forget tOSU-Michigan game, forget the Iron Bowl, that is the premeire rivalry for years if that happens.
3.) Who is guaranteed to play on TV every week, every time, for the next 10 years and longer? Notre Dame.
Finally, ND has billions in endowments. That's millions with a B. When the Irish go to a BCS bowl under Meyer, you think they won't give him some of that $14 million as a bonus?
That being said, I don't think Meyer will be leaving which I think would be the best thing for college football. And Georgia.
Holtz got the talnet because ND let their recruiting standards slip so they could win a National Title. He bailed when they tightened them back up. You can only ride on the coat tails of your programs history so long. Look at Randy Shannon in Miami. He's done a fine job getting that program back on track, but that is after the administration took a more hands off approach after their up down relationship with Coker. Sadly in college sports right now you have to have thugs on your roster to be succesfull. ND will not allow any thugs.
Lets be honest, the real reason the original poster wants Urban Meyer to go to Notre Dame is simple. He wants him out of the SEC. To be the best, you have to beat the best. You'll get your chance (again) on December 5th. Dont get too upset if the Gators beat you again.
exactly its just the haters talkin all this jazz, they only hope meyer leaves the GATORS for the irish just so they think they have a "fighting" chance ha ha ha!!!
Sadly in college sports right now you have to have thugs on your roster to be succesfull I think "winding up with" some thugs is inevitable, the style of the game attracts some of them. But no, sorry, not accepting that it's "required". The closest things you can find to "thugs" on the UF team is the Spikes issue, and that's vastly overrated. I hear the Pouncey twins are less than charming, but that's just hearsay from someone who went to HS with them.
Look I'm a Gator fan, but if you can call 30+ arrests since Urban Meyer took over "winding up with thugs" than please remove your Orange and Blue blinders.
I always get a kick out of people that say ND can't recruit as easy as other schools. A moderately accurate statement -- I think recruiting is easier at UF because of the locale. There are no states better than Florida, Texas, and Cali for football recruiting. Being able to play within a few hours of home is always a great selling point for kids just leaving home for the first time.
I think ND can balance this somewhat by the fact that when you say "college football", at least right now, ND is still one of the elite.I think it'll take at least another 20 years of extreme mediocrity before the name has little cache.
The right coach should be able to put ND back to prominence again, if not with ease, then certainly with aplomb.
And yeah, Meyer would certainly be one of those. The question is, is it worth it to him to prove he can do it again? And does he really want to? He's already proven he can do it in three locations. I'd suspect any next step for him would be pro football, if anywhere.
I always get a kick out of people that say ND can't recruit as easy as other schools. Yes, schools in Florida, Texas, and California will always have good recruiting classes because they can keep talent in state. But ND has always, ALWAYS been a national recruiting scene, and only recently have they looked poor in recruiting because they don't have good recruiters at the school. Holtz was always able to bring in talent. Even Davies brought in blue chips. But since Willingham, they have not been able to bring in consistent top 10 classes like they used to. People look at USC and Florida's classes year after year and say how amazing it is...that used to be Notre Dame! They obviously CAN recruit the great atheletes, it is just a matter of getting the recruiters to convince the kids. It's not just a matter of being close to home. South Bend is where fun goes to die. It's a sad gray town with crappy weather and ugly co-eds. If you think the recruiters from UT, USC and UF aren't mentioning that while they walk around in shorts on a beautiful campus, then you're delusional.
Also, Notre Dame has higher academic standards than the other programs they are competing against, which is great, but it does automatically eliminate a significant portion of the talent that they'd like to recruit.
Now, does that mean that Notre Dame can't recruit the best talent? No. But it does put them at a pretty big disadvantage.
Personally, I always get a kick out of people that think that recruits will come to Notre Dame just because its Notre Dame. Unless the kid grew up in a home where his parents were ND alum, then he probably has no idea that Notre Dame has ever had a decent program. (I also laugh at UK fans that think that recruits will come to UK just because its UK, but that's a different discussion)
1.) As you said, it is easier for ND to get into the BCS because they only need 9 wins and a top 12 ranking. Very easy to obtain since they can set their own schedule.Actually according to BCSFootball.org Notre Dame Needs to be in the top 8 of the BCS rankings to qualify for an automatic birth. And setting your own schedule is no guarantee that you will finish in the top 8. You still have to win the games, and if you have a schedule that is tough enough to warrant getting into the BCS top 8 I can assure you it won't be an easy one.
2.) Wanna play for a national title every year? Just beat USC and you are in. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE EPIC RIVALRY THAT WILL RETURN IF CARROLL AND MEYER WENT AT IT EVERY YEAR? Forget tOSU-Michigan game, forget the Iron Bowl, that is the premeire rivalry for years if that happens. Yeah... try telling that to Oregon. The road to the BCS Championship game is through the SEC. It has been for quite a while, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. And Notre Dame vs USC will never be bigger than Ohio State v Michigan. Will. Not. Happen.
3.) Who is guaranteed to play on TV every week, every time, for the next 10 years and longer? Notre Dame. Awww... 10 years. Isn't that cute. I guess you must have missed that 15 year, 2 Billion dollar contract that ESPN signed with the SEC. It's just too bad that no one ever thinks to turn on NBC to watch a college football game since they don't have any other games on. (Not to mention, who in the world can listen to Tom Hammond for more than 10 minutes at a time?)
Finally, ND has billions in endowments. That's millions with a B. When the Irish go to a BCS bowl under Meyer, you think they won't give him some of that $14 million as a bonus? Florida, USC, Michigan, Ohio State, TCU, T A&M, Nebraska and Oklahoma all have more than 1 Billion (with a "B") in endowments, and Texas laughs at your paltry 6 Billion.
I do agree with some of your points you made, but a couple I would like to discuss further with you:
1.) Yes, Notre Dame is an auto-qualifier if they are in the top 8. But all teams are eligible for an at-large selection once they crack the top 14, and Notre Dame will ALWAYS get a spot if they make the top 14. They have too big of a fan base and alumni support to not be taken (see: Fiesta and Sugar Bowls in Charlie Weiss first two years).
2.) I definitely agree that it is easier to recruit at big schools in the populous states like Florida and Texas and Cali where admission standards are not as strict. However, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio never get the credit they do for pumping out athletes and the midwest cranks out O-Linemen like its candy (but you have to go to the south to find D-Linemen). While admission standards are harder, its not like you have to be a genius or top of the class to get into ND as an athlete. Harder than most schools? Absolutely, but they cut some wiggle room and they might be more apt to do so if a coach like Meyer came in requesting it, so they can get those payoffs from the BCS.
3.) What I was referring to in the national championship chase was that if he brings his teams to Florida-like status, its a one game season almost every year. If you are national title good, you are able to roll through the Big 10 teams in September and October, you should beat your Big East teams like Pitt and UConna and Syracuse, and you NEVER lose to a service academy. That means that more times than not, it will be a showdown against the LA boys to determine whether you go undefeated and play for a NC, or you are a 1/2 loss team that is playing in the Fiesta.
4.) Yes, I have heard the SEC and ESPN locked each other up for fifteen years and that will expose the SEC to more households nationally and is great for PR. However, you must have missed how their are still ten years left on the deal, one that was signed in the early 90s. They have been on the same TV deal with NBC for what will end up as at least 25 years when all is said and done. And you are guaranteed to be on TV every week. Just because ESPN has a deal with the SEC doesn't mean Florida is on every week. Just some SEC game of the week.
5.) Finally, ND has the largest alumni endowment of any school. And it's by a long shot. Next closest of Forbes list- not a football school like you listed. It's MIT then a bunch of Ivy League schools.
Again, I enjoyed some of your points and do enjoy going back in forth in a good debate and look forward to your responses, but I do want to know your take on this:
Agree or disagree: Meyer vs. Carroll would be THE rivalry of college football if he went to ND. I just think that that would be the new 10 year War rivalry that the entire college football world gets sucked into every year.
1.) Yes, Notre Dame is an auto-qualifier if they are in the top 8. But all teams are eligible for an at-large selection once they crack the top 14, and Notre Dame will ALWAYS get a spot if they make the top 14. They have too big of a fan base and alumni support to not be taken (see: Fiesta and Sugar Bowls in Charlie Weiss first two years). So are you suggesting that If Florida wasn't an auto-qualifier and they were in the top 14 that they wouldn't be selected? If you are saying that, I respectfully disagree, and if you aren't suggesting that, I don't see how this give Notre Dame any advantage over Florida.
2.) I definitely agree that it is easier to recruit at big schools in the populous states like Florida and Texas and Cali where admission standards are not as strict. However, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio never get the credit they do for pumping out athletes and the midwest cranks out O-Linemen like its candy (but you have to go to the south to find D-Linemen). While admission standards are harder, its not like you have to be a genius or top of the class to get into ND as an athlete. Harder than most schools? Absolutely, but they cut some wiggle room and they might be more apt to do so if a coach like Meyer came in requesting it, so they can get those payoffs from the BCS. It's not just academics, and populous states. Put yourself in the place of a 17 year old boy. Would you rather go to a school that's in the grayest city this side of Gary IN, with crappy weather, or some place like UF, or USC where you're a short drive from the beach, hot co-eds are everywhere, and the weather is gorgeous. Remember... you're a 17 year old kid when you're being recruited. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that Notre Dame isn't at a huge disadvantage?
3.) What I was referring to in the national championship chase was that if he brings his teams to Florida-like status, its a one game season almost every year. If you are national title good, you are able to roll through the Big 10 teams in September and October, you should beat your Big East teams like Pitt and UConna and Syracuse, and you NEVER lose to a service academy. That means that more times than not, it will be a showdown against the LA boys to determine whether you go undefeated and play for a NC, or you are a 1/2 loss team that is playing in the Fiesta. But that is assuming that you can get the program back to that status again, which is a might big "if" considering the recruiting disadvantages that Notre Dame has to face. I mean... if you are a national championship calibur team, then sure you should role through almost any schedule. I just don't see any reason to think that Notre Dame will have a team of that calibur in the foreseable future.
4.) Yes, I have heard the SEC and ESPN locked each other up for fifteen years and that will expose the SEC to more households nationally and is great for PR. However, you must have missed how their are still ten years left on the deal, one that was signed in the early 90s. They have been on the same TV deal with NBC for what will end up as at least 25 years when all is said and done. And you are guaranteed to be on TV every week. Just because ESPN has a deal with the SEC doesn't mean Florida is on every week. Just some SEC game of the week.The TV contract is a double edged sword. Sure if you're good a national audience gets to see you winning. But if you're not, all of those recruits can still see you losing to Uconn. And I don't think you read the terms of the deal that the SEC inked with ESPN.
"ESPN will have rights to every SEC home football game not on the network package and all league matchups will be shown on some outlet, including at least 20 a year on ESPN or ESPN2."
The contract is in addition to the CBS contract the SEC already had.
1 Harvard UniversityMA 36,556,284,000 2 Yale University CT 22,869,700,000 3 Stanford University CA 17,200,000,000 4 Princeton University NJ 16,349,329,000 5 University of Texas System TX 16,111,184,000 6 MITMA 10,068,800,000 7 University of Michigan MI 7,571,904,000 8 Northwestern University IL 7,243,948,000 9 Columbia University NY 7,146,806,000 10 The Texas A&M TX 6,659,352,000 11 University of Chicago IL 6,632,311,000 12 University of Pennsylvania PA 6,233,281,000 13 University of Notre Dame IN 6,225,688,000
And again, Florida, USC, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Ohio State are all above $1Billion as well.
But I do believe I see a few football schools ahead of Notre Dame on the list. (a few of them allegedly have a football program too ;)
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Notre Dame doesn't have a lot of money to throw around. Clearly they do, but I just don't think they are as high up on the food chain as you seem to think.
Nice try Roll tide, but you're off on about all counts.
1) Maybe a few bucks more, but not much. He makes 4 mil at UF. 2) Everyone else has already told you how far off you are on this one. 3) He'll be replacing 4 starters on offense (maybe 5) and 5 on defense. The replacements - Brantley, Debose, Robey, and Hurt on offense have either started some this year, are actually potential improvements (Debose), or are not the step back many think (Brantley). I love the Tebow argument - all these sites have people screaming about Tebow being overrated, yet then turn around and claim Uf will fall without him. Well, which one is it folks? On defense, 3 of the 5 replacements will be 5 star recruit caliber players just waiting their turns. The others have already been playing a bunch in the rotation this year. If anyone knows about replacing talent with possibly better talent it's Bama this year. 4) UGA, FSU, LSU and UT? Seriously? The first three are a mess right now and more than one season from a fix that seriously challenges UF. UT actually loses a bunch from a .500 tm and will have a true frosh at QB. Considering their D didn't force UF to punt until late in the 4th quarter, not sure why everyone is fired up about that one for at least 2-3 more years. Don't be shocked to see UF pull a 10-2 "surprise" next year. 5) It may be easier to make a BCS at ND (debatable but I can see that one), but it's not easier to get to the title game. First, ND can squeeze 9-10 wins out of their talent base, but the extra push for 11-12 wins to beat the elite tms on the schedule isn't there because of recruiting disadvantages that every other college football fan and writer seem to understand. It took Lou Holtz 10 yrs and a lot of pushing the envelope regarding rules to get one title. Urban is in year 5 and is in the running for a 3rd title. Easier at ND? that may be the dumbest comment of all of them. 6) 9-3 makes you a hero for maybe 2 years at ND, after that it better be title time, particularly if they are paying the 6 mil range you must be implying, since he already makes 4 mil. There's no proof he'd win without Tebow at ND either, and he's signed for 6 yrs at 4 mil a pop at UF, how much you think he needs? Money won't be a factor.
I think if he's smart the next coach at ND should be Nick Saban. He's about to lose Cody, and is one year from losing Jones/Ingram. There's no proof he can win without them, he'd make a ton of money, since ND can pay more than Bama, the SEC West is only getting stronger, and it's easier to recruit and win the natl title there. He's put together a nice run in the SEC, but unless you're special, well you know. Since Saban has only won one title, at a different school, and that was because he didn't have to play USC in the title game, I'm not sure he has the pedigree to last much longer in the SEC....just depends on the name inserted to see how stupid it all sounds Tide.
Now that everyone has had a chance to respond to my original post, let me respond to you:
1. ND could offer Meyer a contract making a million more a year than anybody else. Plus, they could give him an incentive laden contract earning him even more money for making the BCS, winning 10 games, etc. Since ND has it's own network and doesn't have to pay a conference, it is at a distinct advantage in terms of money.
2. Meyer did go undefeated at Utah, but look how easy that looks now. Some team going undefeated in a weak conference is becoming the norm. Look here lately - Utah, Boise, Cincy, TCU, etc., etc. What he did was great, but it's not like it was something crazy special. Florida did win the title with Leak as the starting QB, but you'd be ignorant not to acknowledge that Tim Tebow wasn't the X factor on that team. Every short yardage play went to him. Without Tebow, that team does not play for a national title.
3. Same rings true. He loses a majority of his team next year.
4. Same rings true. Getting to the BCS is easier at ND. If you want to compare schedules, compare the schedules of TCU, Cincy and ND this year. Without USC, I would say that ND's schedule is easier than both of their schedules.
5. When I say that teams sink into mediocrity, I know that it happens to everyone. However, there is nothing that proves that Meyer won't lose at least 2 games a year without his Tebow. Even with Tebow, he's lost 2, 4 and 1 games the last three years respectively. Take away what most UF fans call the best player of their team's history and maybe the best player of all time, and do you really expect to stay title contenders? Considering ND's weak schedule, Meyer could run his scheme with slightly lesser talent yet do what he's done record wise at Florida. He's lost at least 1 game every year even with Tebow. He could lose to USC every year but go 11-1 and probably play in the title game every other year.
For those looking for a motive in my post, good try. There is nothing any Bama fan wants than an undefeated and completely healthy Florida in the SEC Title Game. To be the best, we want to beat the best. Our focus is our bitter rival Auburn, but our ultimate goal, even before we played Utah in the Sugar Bowl, was to earn another shot at Tebow and Florida. We want to right the wrongs of our one bad quarter of last season (4th quarter of 2008 SEC Title Game). We want to beat the guy that everyone is saying the is the best coach and the player everyone is calling the best player.
I could care less if Urban stays or goes, but if I'm Urban, I make the move to place where I make more money, play an easier schedule, and have an easier shot to make the title game each year.
1. ND could offer Meyer a contract making a million more a year than anybody else. Plus, they could give him an incentive laden contract earning him even more money for making the BCS, winning 10 games, etc. Since ND has it's own network and doesn't have to pay a conference, it is at a distinct advantage in terms of money. Unless you can say exactly what every other team is capable and willing to pay, that is entirely speculation on your part. But I will add a few other points... there are several other programs that have more money to spend than Notre Dame. I wouldn't call $44,000,000 to buy out Weiss and his assistants as a financial advantage.
2. Meyer did go undefeated at Utah, but look how easy that looks now. Some team going undefeated in a weak conference is becoming the norm. Look here lately - Utah, Boise, Cincy, TCU, etc., etc. What he did was great, but it's not like it was something crazy special. Florida did win the title with Leak as the starting QB, but you'd be ignorant not to acknowledge that Tim Tebow wasn't the X factor on that team. Every short yardage play went to him. Without Tebow, that team does not play for a national title. I don't know why you're so focused on Tebow. I'll let you in on a little secret. Notre Dame won't be drafting Tebow next season, so I fail to see why Notre Dame has an advantage because Tebow is leaving.
3. Same rings true. He loses a majority of his team next year.I'm pretty sure the rest of Florida's team won't end up at Notre Dame next season either. So again, why do you think Notre Dame has an advantage here?
4. Same rings true. Getting to the BCS is easier at ND. If you want to compare schedules, compare the schedules of TCU, Cincy and ND this year. Without USC, I would say that ND's schedule is easier than both of their schedules.Getting into the BCS may be easier, (of course, look how easy it was for Weiss) but it certainly isn't easier to get into the BCS Title game. For ND to get into the Title game they have to be in the top 2 of the BCS standings, just like any other team, and they aren't going to do that by coasting through an easy schedule.
5. When I say that teams sink into mediocrity, I know that it happens to everyone. However, there is nothing that proves that Meyer won't lose at least 2 games a year without his Tebow. Even with Tebow, he's lost 2, 4 and 1 games the last three years respectively. Take away what most UF fans call the best player of their team's history and maybe the best player of all time, and do you really expect to stay title contenders? Considering ND's weak schedule, Meyer could run his scheme with slightly lesser talent yet do what he's done record wise at Florida. He's lost at least 1 game every year even with Tebow. He could lose to USC every year but go 11-1 and probably play in the title game every other year. Again, if ND plays a junk schedule with one quality opponent, that they lose to, there is a ZERO percent chance that they play in the title game. Do you even know how the BCS works??????????
So, you've made a couple of weak points as to why Meyer might want to leave Florida after this year, but none of them particularly compelling, and you made several points why he would want to go to ND, but they are all just flat out wrong.
Between their crappy location, and academic requirements, Notre Dame is at a HUGE recruiting disadvantage. If Meyer ever were to go to Noter Dame (and I sincerely doubt it will happen any time soon, if ever) it won't be because it will be easier there, it will be because it will be a much bigger challenge.
I'm trying to figure out if you have a bigger man-crush on Tebow or Meyer though... it's hard for me to decide.
