Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

RedBullSC1 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Sep 28, 2008
	November 12, 2009 11:37 pm Score: 133
	After watching Jake Shields win his fight against Miller, I believe that being saved by the bell is lame and should be removed from MMA. Shields was finished and only had a couple more seconds before he would have been put to sleep. In a real fight he would have been done. In a way old school UFC is starting to appeal to me more. Back when you could pull hair, no weight class, you could head butt, etc, etc. It was closer to the real thing back then which is how this all started if you were even old enough back during UFC 1 and the subsequent following years. Now, I can see how they had to change the rules for safety as the sport evolved and thats all good. But if you think about it, why should you be saved by the bell? It really serves no purpose. Now I am not a fan of Miller nor Shields. Shields for the most part handled him on the ground and Miller seemed to suck against the take down, but non the less in my opinion shields was done on that moment and the bell saved him. There is no saved by the bell in a real fight, and they should keep the real fight aspect as true to a real fight as possible as long as it does not jeopardize safety. And being saved by the bell really makes no sense. If not they should have some type of rule that if bell rings and your in a submission you have 8 seconds or 10 seconds before you can be saved in order to ensure that you are not completely caught in a deep submission. If the person could not lock in by that time, well its obviously not tight enough. Shields got lucky! REMOVE BEING SAVED BY THE BELL. Thoughts?
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

RedBullSC1 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Sep 28, 2008
	November 12, 2009 11:38 pm Score: 56
	Can I get a bump for Miller get screwed.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

Slapdaddy Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Oct 5, 2008
	November 12, 2009 11:52 pm Score: 63
	I agree 100%. Especially since it does not come up that often. Submissions are tough now a days, and have them stripped away from a bell could be the turning the point in the fight. It certainly was in Jake Shields case.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 10:42 am Score: 96
	its not like the fighters are unaware of the time limit. Miller has just as much time as everyone to sink that choke. He didnt. There is a clock for a reason. In football u dont see teams upset bc they could have scored the winning touchdown if they had just few more seconds on the clock. U have to win w/in the time period given
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

RedBullSC1 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Sep 28, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:10 pm Score: 120
	I agree with everything you said in regards to time in football. But in this case I disagree. He had the choke locked in. Its no different in certain boxing fights that a fighter can not be saved by bell. He got rocked, hes down for the count why should the bell save him? The knock down occurred before the time expired. This is no different in my opinion. The choke is locked and secured before the bell, he should not be saved, or should have X amount of seconds after the bell. If he has not tapped or put to sleep then the choke or submission is not good enough and fighter goes to the next round. In this case Shields would have been counting sheep.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

J-E-T-S-Fan Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Sep 25, 2006
	November 13, 2009 12:18 pm Score: 115
	"The choke is locked and secured before the bell, he should not be saved, or should have X amount of seconds after the bell. If he has not tapped or put to sleep then the choke or submission is not good enough and fighter goes to the next round. " That's exactly what the clock is for - in fact, you could look at it as the submission wasn't good enough to get things done in the time alotted. Saying a round should have extra time is completely and utterly ridiculous. Especially when the rounds are 5 minutes long. It's not like a fighter is truly pressed for time as if it's a one minute round. You say that Miller had the choke locked in - the point is that he didn't have it locked in in time to submit/choke out Shields within the allotted 300 seconds. Had he been good enough to get the choke locked in 10-15 seconds earlier, he likely would have won. But, he wasn't/didn't - so on to the next round. Finally - MMA is not boxing. People really need to stop trying to compare the two.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

UCLAkings Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Oct 1, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:21 pm Score: 130
	This is a tough one to call. I see what you are saying and it makes sense. Its just hard to judge sometimes because you do not know how tight the submission is. But then again, If they had a time limit after the bell as you say, this gives the fighter an amount of time to get out of the submission in order to avoid some long drawn out struggle from a weak submission that is not fully locked or show the the attempt is not deep enough. I agree, but not to the extent of not being saved by the bell, but they would have to implement a certain amount time. Like a 10 second rule. Ie. Fighter who is caught in a submission prior to the round ending has 10 seconds to avoid a tap or being submitted. If the default time elapses bell ends. This gives an ample amount of time for the fighter who locked the submission to prove he has one, and a ample amount of time for the submitted fighter to prove its either a weak submission and doing nothing. The more I think about it, it would also ad a lot excitement. Every time this occurred you would have every one out of their seats yelling and cheering for their fighter before that 10 seconds elapses.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:28 pm Score: 89
	yeah, gotta agree jets fan. Almost any MMA sub, esp a RNC, if its locked in its done. It only takes a few seconds. Truth is Miller was attempting to sub him. Theres a huge difference in an attempt and doing it. He could have laid there another full minute and may have never got his forearm under his chin.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

RedBullSC1 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Sep 28, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:32 pm Score: 125
	You say that Miller had the choke locked in - the point is that he didn't have it locked in in time to submit/choke out Shields within the allotted 300 seconds. Had he been good enough to get the choke locked in 10-15 seconds earlier, he likely would have won. But, he wasn't/didn't - so on to the next round. Finally - MMA is not boxing. People really need to stop trying to compare the twoFirst of all, I know MMA is not boxing. It has nothing to do with necessarily comparing the two even though I did make a comparison. Its more about the concept of it. And its not ridiculous it's a strong argument. There is a reason for the no saved by the bell. The knock out occurred before the round ended. Why should a fighter have a chance to survive even if he would have been down for longer than 10 seconds. I do not see how its any different here. If a fighter is knocked out in MMA, or caught in a submission prior to the round ending why should it save him? The only real argument for it is, "because those are the rules and the fighters know them before going into the fight" Well no S hit! Does not mean its a good rule. Does not mean it can not be changed. Second your argument can be used both ways, if someone could have just knocked out their opponent 10 15 seconds earlier then they would not have to worry about that. In this situation, I believe boxing has the better rule, and I'm not even a big boxing fan. It just makes sense in my opinion.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:33 pm Score: 76
	no 10 second rule. subs that are LOCKED in, generally end a fight in seconds. 10 second rule is too subjective. You either tap or u dont. it isnt fair if someone has a semi locked in sub to have more time to lock it in. Go back to gym and work your Jitz.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

RedBullSC1 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Sep 28, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:33 pm Score: 106
	Truth is Miller was attempting to sub him. Theres a huge difference in an attempt and doing it. He could have laid there another full minute and may have never got his forearm under his chin.Hence why I stated no save by the bell "OR" a predetermined amount of time after the bell ends to avoid just what you said. But if you watched the fight that submission was locked. Shields had a few more seconds before he was done.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:41 pm Score: 102
	a KO/TKO and a sub are completely different. U get floored by a punch right before the bell, the other guy isnt allowed to wail on after the bell just because your hurt. So why should someone continue to physically attack u after the bell,like being able to continue working a sub. The "no saved by the bell" rule works for a KO because the result is not altered. u get hit, the bell rings, and if u cant get up youre done, but the other guy did his work before the bell rang.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

UCLAkings Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Oct 1, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:42 pm Score: 122
	it isnt fair if someone has a semi locked in sub to have more time to lock it in. Go back to gym and work your Jitz.I agree with your point. However, I also think that if the submission is not locked and its in the supposed 10 seconds, by the time its locked the fighter would still have enough time to last. Say three or 4 seconds to secure the lock, The fighter will have 5 seconds to hold out. Or just make the time shorter then. 5 or 6 second rule. That eliminates that. Lastly, I actually train BJJ, and I know how long it takes to be put out before you actually go lights out. If the submission is not locked in prior to the bell sounding and it took a few seconds in the so called bonus time(10 sec rule) the defending fighter would not be done. Thats why I agree with Redbull. I believe that the defending fighter would only be finished if the submission was actually locked seconds before the round ended. If it is the defending fighter is most likely done. If its not, what is an extra few seconds going to do? Nothing, the round ends and the fight continues. Just saying.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

Bsox1! Reputation:87 Level:All-Star Since:Oct 1, 2009
	November 13, 2009 12:43 pm Score: 78
	I dont believe extending the round is fair at all. If you are the guy that is being submitted you are looking at the clock thinking I have only got to last X amount more seconds. That would suck to lose after the bell sounded because you gave an atvantage only to the guy trying to get the tap out. That being said it would not be fair to give only one fighter an advantage. That would absolutely be rediculous.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:45 pm Score: 87
	I hear what your saying. But to allow a fighter to continue physically harming the other after the bell isnt right. If someone doesnt tap before the bell then u didnt get it done. U shouldnt be allowed to physically do damage after the the round is over
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

caddy417 Reputation:98 Level:Superstar Since:Aug 18, 2008
	November 13, 2009 12:51 pm Score: 132
	Lastly, I actually train BJJok then u can at least agree w/ this. How many weak chokes, weak kimuras, weak whatever have guys tapped to? Hell, Tim Sylvia tapped to a RNC to Fedor just at the thought of it, it wasnt even under his chin. Now how many guys have survive brutal arm bars, or escaped a certain sub thru straight will power? U cant add that kind of subjective process in MMA. Theres already enough when it comes to bad stoppages due to strikes. Thats why subs are awesome. U tap or u dont. And theres nothing wrong w/ having the clock as a friend in the cage. Besides what if the scenario happens where someone has deep Americana and this new "10 second rule" goes into affect. Someone could get their shoulder ripped out because they think they can just survive 10 more seconds. It would lead to some unfortunate injuries
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

topdog4140 Reputation:95 Level:Superstar Since:May 29, 2009
	November 13, 2009 1:01 pm Score: 99
	I understand your arugment but I dont agree with it. In this particular case Im sure that once Miller had the choke locked in that it became part of Shield's stategy to hold on until the round ended so giving Miller another 10 seconds would have been completely unfair to Shield's. Both fighters are aware of the time and depending on how the fight is going they change their strategy accordingly.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

UCLAkings Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Oct 1, 2008
	November 13, 2009 1:12 pm Score: 133
	ok then u can at least agree w/ this. How many weak chokes, weak kimuras, weak whatever have guys tapped to? Hell, Tim Sylvia tapped to a RNC to Fedor just at the thought of it, it wasnt even under his chin. Now how many guys have survive brutal arm bars, or escaped a certain sub thru straight will power?I have seen it many times. I agree with you. Besides what if the scenario happens where someone has deep Americana and this new "10 second rule" goes into affect. Someone could get their shoulder ripped out because they think they can just survive 10 more seconds.But couldn't that happen anyway during the fight? I mean someone could be locked in deep thinking, I'm not going to tap, I will eventually bust out of this, only to find they have a hyper extended elbow or knee. I do not see the difference whether that would be during the round or if there was a bonus 10 second rule. U cant add that kind of subjective process in MMA.I do agree with this though. The rule would leave a lot to subjectivity. What if the fighter who is doing the submission starts striking instead. I never thought of this, and because of this you would have to create further rules such as, in the 10 sec rule no strikes only continued submission or something along those lines. Or if a fighter for what ever reason gets injured but did not get submitted such as turning out the wrong way out of a heel hook or something.(even though that could happen in the round anyway) Or some inadvertent damage occurs such as a poke in the eye. In the end I somewhat agree with both, and really have no problem with either. It's just sucks to see someone get saved by the bell when you can tell that it was obviously locked in. I mean Shields was turning blue. He only had a few more seconds really.
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

edge1012 Reputation:92 Level:All-Star Since:Jul 22, 2008
	November 13, 2009 1:30 pm Score: 118
	I do see your point, but do not think this is a rule that we will see changed anytime soon. If it was a rule, we may have seen Shields actually trying to get out of the move, when that 10 seconds left bang bang bang happens, but he didn't. But then again, it did look to me like he was just about out, and another 5 seconds or so, he probably was done. I guess I look at it like this.. If a guy is in full mount, pounding away on his opponet, and ya get the 10 second bang bang bang, and the guy is whaling away, the bell rings, and he has to stop, just like releasing the choke... So, it's not a rule we'll see changed, anytime soon, if you can be saved by the bell getting pounded out, ya gotta be able to be saved by the bell in a sub. Plus, I think it also adds to rating s and to the excitment of the fight.. Cause my thinking was, holy s*** man, he was just about out, I can't wait to see what happens in the next round.. Anyway, man it was a great fight, Miller fought his heart out, as well did Shields.. And I'm glad we have a knowledgeable forum here to discuss our thoughts..
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- Saved by "THE BELL" lame in MMA. Totally Lame!!!

Steeler Zone Reputation:93 Level:All-Star Since:Aug 6, 2008
	November 13, 2009 2:56 pm Score: 54
	<Bump> Miller rocks. Should have won the fight! Even though he didnt do the most damage he was totally calm and in control for most of this fight.
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